OK, I'll start. Been away for a while so playing catch up.
Role of Government. Protect us from domestic and foreign terror. Which means fund an army. Take care of the interstate system. Protect us from religous persecution. Now comes the controversial stuff. In a country as wealthy as ours we should be able to supply healthcare and at least a modest standard of living. Clean air and water and some way to take care of the elderly. OK, let me have it.
Heritage foundation had a post about this and made some good points . They state in part:
“Government's task is to articulate the rights and duties of citizens and protect them from threats. This is very different from the belief that government should create rights or exercise people's duties for them through programs that replace individual and community initiatives”
When Government gets too big, it weakens other social, family, religious, and individual obligations. It reduces our obligations we have to one another. It assumes us to look to Government for our needs.
Healthcare has now become a right and we expect Government to provide for it. What is next. We are creating rights and eroding the responsibility of the individual. As individual responsibility decay, so does our way of life. We are all part of society and have a responsibility to participate equally in it.
Okay… let make it real My sister has fibromyalgia. (Look it up if you don’t know what it is) She has had it for 7 years now. She has serve pain just walking down the stairs. Most the time when I see her I want to cry because she is not the same person I grow up with. However, even with this every day pain she holds down a good job and pays for the house she lives in. (in AZ also) However, her insurance company dropped her soon after fibromyalgia got worse, and her employer doesn’t pay for heath insurance. It took over a year to find a company that would give her heath insurance. Yet now with her prescriptions and premium payments she pays almost as much as her house payment. About a year ago they found a tumor the size of a tennis ball on one of her ovaries. Someone in my family had to help pay for the operation to remove it since the heath insurance only covered 35% of it.
In a richest country in the world is this fair? My sister can’t get good heath insurance because she doesn’t help the bottom line for her insurance company. (She cost them to much) Plus, her boss is too cheap to have company heath insurance. But he can pay for his BMW 7 series and live in a multi-million dollar home.(nice) She would leave but no one would hire some one with fibromyalgia.
I understand life is not always far, but let see you sit in front of someone that has a crippling ailment and say “Healthcare & living a healthy life is not a right” If you can, then I’m sorry.
I'm sorry about your sister and I think there are things that should be done to our healthcare system so someone like your sister can afford it and get good care, but the government is not the answer. A free market is the answer, the more the government gets involved the more all of our options are going to decline. We will soon be waiting in line for basic treatment. I do not want the government determing if I should receive a treatment or not. If healthcare is a right, then why not a car because you have to get to your doctors appointment and then how about a house because if you don't have a roof over your head your going to get sick -where does it stop?
As far as the role of government, I believe it is to defend our constitution, not to change it or rewrite it.
"I do not want the government determining if I should receive a treatment or not. " - I agree with that 100%
"A free market is the answer" - Business is a Business and they will never take on someone (like my sister) that can't add to their bottom line. They will need to be force too. (in some cases)
"As far as the role of government, I believe it is to defend our constitution, not to change it or rewrite it."
- Agree 100%, but slaver okay in the constitution and we changed that.
Last: You didn't answer my question
If someone had breast cancer and couldn't pay for the surgical operation to remove the tumor. Your position is to just let them die. Correct?
There are a lot of comments here so lets start with your sister's or anyones healthcare. We all know or have known someone in a similar circumstance. I don't know who your sister worked for or if she was self insured but most large companies do offer health ins. for their employees. They have a large pool and so one or two risky employees doesn't hurt the whole. Also once one has group health ins. they can't be denied ins. as long as they don't let their ins. lapse as they move to another group. This is portability. And a spouse can have their mate on their ins. Now some people fall through the cracks. What are we to do? We can't be everything to everyone. Conservatives analogy was right on. I may not have health issues but I may have money issues which means I can't repair my car which means I can't work so I lose my job. Where does it end?
You are correct business is a business and if someone does not add to the bottom line they are not needed. Business is not in business as a non profit. Should they be generous and hire someone who doesn't make them money? If so, then should they hire 2 or 25? You hire enough people who aren't adding to the bottom line and you no longer have a business.
There is no simple answer but allowing the government to raise taxes to support any and all people will not work. The money is not there.
Would I let someone die who had brest cancer? Not if I could help it. But how much do I have to give up to support all those unwilling to work or those who have caused their own problems?
We'll have to debate the slavery issue on another blog.
Actually Pook I think if most of us could we would wave a magic wand and fix all of society's ills. But we can't so we have to do the best we can with what we have.
Before you try and make someone answer your question...maybe you should try answering the question I posed to you on the "government is solution" post:
"If you neighbor came up to you and asked for $1,000 to afford a heart transplant, would you give them the money?"
To GiveOachance: "In a country as wealthy as ours" What country do YOU live in?!! Wealthy??? Have you been paying attention lately? There is NO money here!
With all due respect, by your description of what you think government's role is, it sounds like you need a Mommy!
"protect us from religious persecution" really?! Got guilt?!
I am really tired of everyone bashing "religion" and holding their hand out! Get up, get going, take care of yourself and your family!
Hey CC stay at home mom, sounds like someone's a little tense. I think you may need a little role in the hay or maybe some Ex-Lax. Chill a little.
I assume you're kidding sbout the wealth comment so we'll skip that. I don't see a problem with the religous persecution statement, it's true. I wasn't bashing religion at all. Seems when someone gets that defensive usually they have some displaced guilt. Get smacked by a nun or problems with one of those wonderful Catholic Fathers?
I have been having trouble posting, so sorry for the delay in responding to Pook's riveting question about letting someone die of cancer.
Do you let someone die who has cancer and cant afford to pay for treatment? Guess I could respond like a liberal and say it depends on what the persons worth is! Similar to assisted suicide (those elderly have had a good life) or abortion (all those unwanted fetuses) But left thinking usually only works in a vacuum , like their minds.
NO, you don’t let someone die. It is not the people who are in need that has the system screwed up, it’s the fraud in the system. Our health care system has the funds to take care of our country. But, when you have to pay for all the free emergency room visits every day by people who have not and will not pay into the system, then you need to make up the cost somewhere. So Insurance companies get charged more, out of pocket co pays go up, all to support the people who are abusing the system. As the insurance rate goes up, the small employer has to make a choice, health care, or reduce the size of the workforce. Would your sister be better off if her employer gave health care to everyone and had to lay your sister and others off to cover for the cost? Is your sister better off with a job and no health care, or no job and no health care? Until we can get a handle on the fraud, costs will not go down.
If your concerned about cost of health care, look at the ones who are abusing the system. Did you know that GM is the largest user of Viagra, because they have it free in their Union health care package for the workers. BUT, 1/1000th of the tablets actually go to workers, the rest is sold through a Canadian on-line drug company. But again, that type of fraud is OK, because it is a liberal group that supports the Democrats who is doing it. Who pays for all those scripts? Do you think it impacts the cost of health insurance across the board?
Nothing is free, that is not the role of Government to make everything free and easy. Government is not the answer.
So what was the issue I didn't confront? In typical conservative fashion you jump on me but don't say anything about CCMoms attack on me. Show me where I bashed religion and I'll recant.
I agree she did throw the first punch, just thought it was a bit low to make the comments you did about her religion. "get smacked by a nun or one of those wonderful Catholic Fathers", I'm sure it was said with a great deal of respect. Get real!
The issue was role of Government and self reliance and responsibility.
I don't think we disagree that much on the issue. You said if we would get rid of the waste and fraud we could pay for healthcare. I said the same thing just didn't say get rid of waste. The nun comment was made to tweak her. When she got her panties in a bunch I knew I could push a button.
That was funny. I totally understand the "tweak" comment. I have been known to do that quite a bit. Maybe that explains the 2 divorces??? NO, couldnt be me.
Most issues from what I find, both sides are very close in their desire to solve the problem and can agree on many of the issues. The rub comes in how to solve the problem. And how they view the solution is dictated by their experience and what they are looking for. If I think the problem is fraud by the average joe out there cheating the system, I look for and can support facts that backs up my views. Just as someone who thinks it is the big business or managements fault and keeping the little guy down, they look for and can support that view with additional facts.
I just hate to see us keep lowering the bar on Indivduale responsibility.
“I may not have health issues but I may have money issues which means I can't repair my car which means I can't work so I lose my job. Where does it end?”
- R u comparing a car (an inanimate object) to a human life?
"If you neighbor came up to you and asked for $1,000 to afford a heart transplant, would you give them the money?"
- Yes I would if I had the money.
“Free emergency room visits every day …..”
- Agree 100%. That is what is wrong with the system. Now I don’t agree with the Massachusetts system, but I do agree that is you can afford private heath insurance then you must buy some! (Or be fined) I think non citizens shouldn’t get healthcare unless is like a broken bone, head injury, and so on. If a non citizen has cancer, then they must go back to the country of origin to get treatment. (Americans always come first) If you can’t afford private heath insurance then a standard of health care will be provided. That level of standard would be their to help with everything, but the moment you reach a that level income that you can afford healthcare then you must buy it from a private heath insurance or you will be fined on your taxes. The system has holes and it always will, I just want anyone to ever loss out on a moment of life because of paper work.
“Assisted suicide” - I’m for it… If someone wants to end it, just let them. Less money on the Medicare system right? - Not the same thing I think but my wife’s cousin has been in a vegetative state for 19 years. (car accident) I’ve will never be live that, I’ve told my wife that if I’m in a vegetative state... then pull the feeding tube ASAP!!! - Uncle Sam should stay out of any family chooses. This would include abortion, marriage, assisted suicide, and bla bla bla.
I don't think a car is being compared to a human life...but if you don't have a car...and you lose your job...you can lose your health insurance which than can cost you your life. So, I don't see a problem with the suggestion of the government repairing your car.
You said that you wouldn’t have a problem with paying for your neighbor if you could afford it. Well, I say that you can afford it. How’s that any different than the government telling you that you can afford it?
Next point, you stated “the moment you reach a that level income that you can afford healthcare then you must buy it from a private heath insurance or you will be fined on your taxes.” So now you have to pay for your own health insurance and mine? Interesting, once again, the government telling you when you can afford something.
And lastly…create a living will. Don’t just tell your wife what you want to happen to you if you’re in a vegetative state, create a living will so there’s no question.
"living will" - Good Idea... I keep putting it off.
"Interesting, once again, the government telling you when you can afford something"
- I agree, it's hard. But it's no different then you paying taxes depending on the amount you make. I know one person that is on a band, making good money in mostly cash (+$50 per year), but doesn't have heath care. He's point of view is "why should I when any ER must take me if I really get sick, and I can go to walmart for the rest everyday needs" So he is taking from the system, and running my rates up.
I don't want uncle SAM telling me what to do also, but somethings must be done for the good of the masses.
OK, I'll start. Been away for a while so playing catch up.
ReplyDeleteRole of Government. Protect us from domestic and foreign terror. Which means fund an army. Take care of the interstate system. Protect us from religous persecution. Now comes the controversial stuff. In a country as wealthy as ours we should be able to supply healthcare and at least a modest standard of living. Clean air and water and some way to take care of the elderly. OK, let me have it.
Heritage foundation had a post about this and made some good points . They state in part:
ReplyDelete“Government's task is to articulate the rights and duties of citizens and protect them from threats. This is very different from the belief that government should create rights or exercise people's duties for them through programs that replace individual and community initiatives”
When Government gets too big, it weakens other social, family, religious, and individual obligations. It reduces our obligations we have to one another. It assumes us to look to Government for our needs.
Healthcare has now become a right and we expect Government to provide for it. What is next. We are creating rights and eroding the responsibility of the individual. As individual responsibility decay, so does our way of life. We are all part of society and have a responsibility to participate equally in it.
Obviously a small Government person.
To Anonymous:
ReplyDeleteIf someone had breast cancer and couldn't pay for the surgical operation to remove the tumor. Your position is to just let them die. Correct?
Yes or No?
Okay… let make it real
ReplyDeleteMy sister has fibromyalgia. (Look it up if you don’t know what it is) She has had it for 7 years now. She has serve pain just walking down the stairs. Most the time when I see her I want to cry because she is not the same person I grow up with. However, even with this every day pain she holds down a good job and pays for the house she lives in. (in AZ also) However, her insurance company dropped her soon after fibromyalgia got worse, and her employer doesn’t pay for heath insurance. It took over a year to find a company that would give her heath insurance. Yet now with her prescriptions and premium payments she pays almost as much as her house payment. About a year ago they found a tumor the size of a tennis ball on one of her ovaries. Someone in my family had to help pay for the operation to remove it since the heath insurance only covered 35% of it.
In a richest country in the world is this fair? My sister can’t get good heath insurance because she doesn’t help the bottom line for her insurance company. (She cost them to much) Plus, her boss is too cheap to have company heath insurance. But he can pay for his BMW 7 series and live in a multi-million dollar home.(nice) She would leave but no one would hire some one with fibromyalgia.
I understand life is not always far, but let see you sit in front of someone that has a crippling ailment and say “Healthcare & living a healthy life is not a right”
If you can, then I’m sorry.
I'm sorry about your sister and I think there are things that should be done to our healthcare system so someone like your sister can afford it and get good care, but the government is not the answer. A free market is the answer, the more the government gets involved the more all of our options are going to decline. We will soon be waiting in line for basic treatment. I do not want the government determing if I should receive a treatment or not. If healthcare is a right, then why not a car because you have to get to your doctors appointment and then how about a house because if you don't have a roof over your head your going to get sick -where does it stop?
ReplyDeleteAs far as the role of government, I believe it is to defend our constitution, not to change it or rewrite it.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete"I do not want the government determining if I should receive a treatment or not. "
ReplyDelete- I agree with that 100%
"A free market is the answer"
- Business is a Business and they will never take on someone (like my sister) that can't add to their bottom line. They will need to be force too. (in some cases)
"As far as the role of government, I believe it is to defend our constitution, not to change it or rewrite it."
- Agree 100%, but slaver okay in the constitution and we changed that.
Last: You didn't answer my question
If someone had breast cancer and couldn't pay for the surgical operation to remove the tumor. Your position is to just let them die. Correct?
Yes or No?
There are a lot of comments here so lets start with your sister's or anyones healthcare. We all know or have known someone in a similar circumstance. I don't know who your sister worked for or if she was self insured but most large companies do offer health ins. for their employees. They have a large pool and so one or two risky employees doesn't hurt the whole. Also once one has group health ins. they can't be denied ins. as long as they don't let their ins. lapse as they move to another group. This is portability. And a spouse can have their mate on their ins. Now some people fall through the cracks. What are we to do? We can't be everything to everyone. Conservatives analogy was right on. I may not have health issues but I may have money issues which means I can't repair my car which means I can't work so I lose my job. Where does it end?
ReplyDeleteYou are correct business is a business and if someone does not add to the bottom line they are not needed. Business is not in business as a non profit. Should they be generous and hire someone who doesn't make them money? If so, then should they hire 2 or 25? You hire enough people who aren't adding to the bottom line and you no longer have a business.
There is no simple answer but allowing the government to raise taxes to support any and all people will not work. The money is not there.
Would I let someone die who had brest cancer? Not if I could help it. But how much do I have to give up to support all those unwilling to work or those who have caused their own problems?
We'll have to debate the slavery issue on another blog.
Actually Pook I think if most of us could we would wave a magic wand and fix all of society's ills. But we can't so we have to do the best we can with what we have.
ReplyDeletePook,
ReplyDeleteBefore you try and make someone answer your question...maybe you should try answering the question I posed to you on the "government is solution" post:
"If you neighbor came up to you and asked for $1,000 to afford a heart transplant, would you give them the money?"
To GiveOachance:
ReplyDelete"In a country as wealthy as ours" What country do YOU live in?!! Wealthy??? Have you been paying attention lately? There is NO money here!
With all due respect, by your description of what you think government's role is, it sounds like you need a Mommy!
"protect us from religious persecution" really?! Got guilt?!
I am really tired of everyone bashing "religion" and holding their hand out! Get up, get going, take care of yourself and your family!
Hey CC stay at home mom, sounds like someone's a little tense. I think you may need a little role in the hay or maybe some Ex-Lax. Chill a little.
ReplyDeleteI assume you're kidding sbout the wealth comment so we'll skip that. I don't see a problem with the religous persecution statement, it's true. I wasn't bashing religion at all. Seems when someone gets that defensive usually they have some displaced guilt. Get smacked by a nun or problems with one of those wonderful Catholic Fathers?
"get smacked by a nun or one of those wonderful Catholic Fathers"
ReplyDeleteYour right, we should be free of Religious persicution....Oh, unless its coming from the left. Got Hypocricy?
In typical liberal fashion, you attack the messenger instead of confronting the issue.
I have been having trouble posting, so sorry for the delay in responding to Pook's riveting question about letting someone die of cancer.
ReplyDeleteDo you let someone die who has cancer and cant afford to pay for treatment? Guess I could respond like a liberal and say it depends on what the persons worth is! Similar to assisted suicide (those elderly have had a good life) or abortion (all those unwanted fetuses) But left thinking usually only works in a vacuum , like their minds.
NO, you don’t let someone die. It is not the people who are in need that has the system screwed up, it’s the fraud in the system. Our health care system has the funds to take care of our country. But, when you have to pay for all the free emergency room visits every day by people who have not and will not pay into the system, then you need to make up the cost somewhere. So Insurance companies get charged more, out of pocket co pays go up, all to support the people who are abusing the system. As the insurance rate goes up, the small employer has to make a choice, health care, or reduce the size of the workforce. Would your sister be better off if her employer gave health care to everyone and had to lay your sister and others off to cover for the cost? Is your sister better off with a job and no health care, or no job and no health care? Until we can get a handle on the fraud, costs will not go down.
If your concerned about cost of health care, look at the ones who are abusing the system. Did you know that GM is the largest user of Viagra, because they have it free in their Union health care package for the workers. BUT, 1/1000th of the tablets actually go to workers, the rest is sold through a Canadian on-line drug company. But again, that type of fraud is OK, because it is a liberal group that supports the Democrats who is doing it. Who pays for all those scripts? Do you think it impacts the cost of health insurance across the board?
Nothing is free, that is not the role of Government to make everything free and easy. Government is not the answer.
So what was the issue I didn't confront? In typical conservative fashion you jump on me but don't say anything about CCMoms attack on me. Show me where I bashed religion and I'll recant.
ReplyDeleteI agree she did throw the first punch, just thought it was a bit low to make the comments you did about her religion. "get smacked by a nun or one of those wonderful Catholic Fathers", I'm sure it was said with a great deal of respect. Get real!
ReplyDeleteThe issue was role of Government and self reliance and responsibility.
I don't think we disagree that much on the issue. You said if we would get rid of the waste and fraud we could pay for healthcare. I said the same thing just didn't say get rid of waste. The nun comment was made to tweak her. When she got her panties in a bunch I knew I could push a button.
ReplyDeleteThat was funny. I totally understand the "tweak" comment. I have been known to do that quite a bit. Maybe that explains the 2 divorces??? NO, couldnt be me.
ReplyDeleteMost issues from what I find, both sides are very close in their desire to solve the problem and can agree on many of the issues. The rub comes in how to solve the problem. And how they view the solution is dictated by their experience and what they are looking for. If I think the problem is fraud by the average joe out there cheating the system, I look for and can support facts that backs up my views. Just as someone who thinks it is the big business or managements fault and keeping the little guy down, they look for and can support that view with additional facts.
I just hate to see us keep lowering the bar on Indivduale responsibility.
“I may not have health issues but I may have money issues which means I can't repair my car which means I can't work so I lose my job. Where does it end?”
ReplyDelete- R u comparing a car (an inanimate object) to a human life?
"If you neighbor came up to you and asked for $1,000 to afford a heart transplant, would you give them the money?"
- Yes I would if I had the money.
“Free emergency room visits every day …..”
- Agree 100%. That is what is wrong with the system. Now I don’t agree with the Massachusetts system, but I do agree that is you can afford private heath insurance then you must buy some! (Or be fined) I think non citizens shouldn’t get healthcare unless is like a broken bone, head injury, and so on. If a non citizen has cancer, then they must go back to the country of origin to get treatment. (Americans always come first) If you can’t afford private heath insurance then a standard of health care will be provided. That level of standard would be their to help with everything, but the moment you reach a that level income that you can afford healthcare then you must buy it from a private heath insurance or you will be fined on your taxes. The system has holes and it always will, I just want anyone to ever loss out on a moment of life because of paper work.
“Assisted suicide”
- I’m for it… If someone wants to end it, just let them. Less money on the Medicare system right?
- Not the same thing I think but my wife’s cousin has been in a vegetative state for 19 years. (car accident) I’ve will never be live that, I’ve told my wife that if I’m in a vegetative state... then pull the feeding tube ASAP!!!
- Uncle Sam should stay out of any family chooses. This would include abortion, marriage, assisted suicide, and bla bla bla.
Pook -
ReplyDeleteI don't think a car is being compared to a human life...but if you don't have a car...and you lose your job...you can lose your health insurance which than can cost you your life. So, I don't see a problem with the suggestion of the government repairing your car.
You said that you wouldn’t have a problem with paying for your neighbor if you could afford it. Well, I say that you can afford it. How’s that any different than the government telling you that you can afford it?
Next point, you stated “the moment you reach a that level income that you can afford healthcare then you must buy it from a private heath insurance or you will be fined on your taxes.” So now you have to pay for your own health insurance and mine? Interesting, once again, the government telling you when you can afford something.
And lastly…create a living will. Don’t just tell your wife what you want to happen to you if you’re in a vegetative state, create a living will so there’s no question.
"living will"
ReplyDelete- Good Idea... I keep putting it off.
"Interesting, once again, the government telling you when you can afford something"
- I agree, it's hard. But it's no different then you paying taxes depending on the amount you make.
I know one person that is on a band, making good money in mostly cash (+$50 per year), but doesn't have heath care. He's point of view is "why should I when any ER must take me if I really get sick, and I can go to walmart for the rest everyday needs" So he is taking from the system, and running my rates up.
I don't want uncle SAM telling me what to do also, but somethings must be done for the good of the masses.