Sunday, July 12, 2009

Is this right or wrong?

I have never created a new post on here, but this is driving me crazy and I couldn't think of a better place to get others opinions!

I have a friend that bought a house during the peak housing market. They purchased their house for $220,000 and now homes in their area are selling for $90,000. Her parents just recently purchased a home in Gilbert that they plan on using for retirement in 3 years. They have told my friend and her family that they can live in the house for the next 3 years(rent free) before they move to Arizona to retire. My friend is very excited because they have better options as far as schools go for their special needs child. She told me the other day that they are going to do a short sale on their home. I asked her how they could do this, her husband still has his job (attorney) so financially nothing has changed for them. She said all you have to do is clear out your bank account, show your debt and that's about it. This is where I start having an issue. I asked her why it is the banks responsibility (and ultimately the taxpayers) to pay off their home just because they want to live somewhere else? She said that they never planned on living in that home very long and how else were they going to get out. Again, my reaction is, that's not my problem or the banks problem because the housing market took a fall, is it? Where did individual responsibility go, when is your bad luck, your bad luck and not someone else's problem to fix? Have we gotten to the point that we expect do overs every time things don't work out the way we want them? She can justify this anyway she wants, but the bottom line is your still falsifying documents to the bank, which is illegal and taking advantage of a program that was intended to help people that really needed it. Is it okay to take advantage of a situation just because it's so easy, or is it still wrong morally and legally?

25 comments:

  1. Hey Conservative, you never stated is your friend a Dem or a Rep? Seems the Dems are getting a bad rap on this but I have to think there are a lot of Republicans doing it too.

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  2. She claims to be more conservative, but I had to work really hard to keep her from voting for Obama so I would say not really one or the other.

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  3. leftofcenter you bring up a good point. I think there are people on both sides taking advantage of this. Does that mean you throw your morals out the window when the program works for you? How many people really walk the walk?

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  4. Right or wrong it's how the system is set-up. When if come to your personal finance; you should never bring politic into it. Take average of any loop hole you can find!

    It’s good that some can put morals into personal finance, let me know how retirement works out for ya.

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  5. So it's okay to cheat the system just because you can? I would say that is a moral issue!

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  6. Ahhhh, the Pook we all know and love! So there are only certain situations to do the morally right thing? Isn't that what we all hate about politics? You're on a slippery slope when you have no moral basis for your decisions. We are then each left to decide what is moral. Whats right for me may be infringing on your liberties but that's OK because I have no morals. I really hope this isn't what you teach your kids.

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  7. Tell em Pook! The system is not set up for guys like us. You got to get what you can when you can. Morallity is in the eye of the beholder.

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  10. OKAY....I read the first POST better, and that is 100% wrong! (that is what I get for speed reading)

    BUT....I still think.....
    You’re not cheating the system if the system was designed that way!! Now if you hiding million in an oversea account; then that’s a different story.
    If you want the loop holes closed down, then e-mail you local representative. Vote for someone that will change the way the system is set-up. I never, never, never said the system was set-up right!(it's not)
    If you want the system to change then make your vote count. Stop crying about Morality, if it’s 100% legal.

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  11. leftofcenter...guys like us? The system is setup so that anyone who wants to get off their ass and work has a chance to succeed (well, until Lord Obama finishes his time). I'm guessing by the "poor me" attitude of that statement that you're living off the system.

    All I can say is...you're welcome.

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  12. Using your definition why is hiding millions in an off shore account wrong if its legal? Adultary isn't wrong either because it's legal. Morals not laws are something that define a society. Without morals a home, country or world will fall to ruin. Look at all past great civilizations. It was their love of self that doomed them not their lack of laws. Doing the right or moral thing is what you do even if no one would know. It's what separates us from animals. Give me a choice to do the moral or legal thing and I'll choose the moral (hopefully)

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  13. Lefty, by guys like you you must mean politicians, lawyers and car salesman. You know those guys who don't care about morals.

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  14. Tiredofthecrap:
    So if the the current administration pass a law giving a 15,000 dollar tax credit to people who own their own business with 50 less employees only and choose to pay for it by raising taxes on the rich.

    Who you take the credit?

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  15. I don't see the correlation to what we were discussing. There are tax credits for just about everything and they are all paid for by taxing those who produce. You said morals and finance don't go together and then made the off shore comment. You said it was wrong to hide money off shore and I asked why if it was legal. You never answered. Here's an example I can give you. My wife is 1/8 American Indian. Because of that we qualify for free college for our kids. We did not take advantage of it because we don't live our lives as Indians, we don't live on the reservation and there are people who need this money more than us. This is an area where I think doing the right thing vs the financial thing is the best decision.

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  16. I guess your right... Morallity is in the eye of the beholder.

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  17. Didn't say I agreed. Just seems to be the view of most people.

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  18. Pook said...
    I guess your right... Morallity is in the eye of the beholder.

    I’ve stayed out of this to see where it would go. Pook’s statement moved me to respond. Morality is in the eye of the beholder is modern secularists view of situation ethics, that there is no clear right or wrong. What may be right for you might not be right for someone else. The problem is that then each person becomes an island or god unto himself.

    I’ve visited with men sitting in the country jail. Only about 1-3% will ever admit that they did something wrong. In their eyes, their morals, they didn’t. Why should they pay child support for a child that they didn’t want or don’t get to see? The fact that they were the other half of the two that it takes to Tango doesn’t matter. He wouldn’t have struck his woman if she hadn’t been asking for it. If only she would have kept her mouth shut and not told the cops, he wouldn’t be in trouble now. Never mind that he was the one who beat on her. It wasn’t rape, she was a willing partner. Never mind that she was underage and he is an adult predator. It was self-defense, it wasn’t murder. Never mind that he had to go home to get the gun and the victim was shot three times in the back.

    As you can see, when morality is in the eyes of the beholder, when the situation allows us to change the what’s wrong to what’s right, we run into problems.

    Bill O’Reilly was condemning AIG for making millions and not paying any income tax by using the tax code to evade them. He was so self-righteous by stating that he could do the same thing and not have to pay taxes but he doesn’t. He felt it was his duty to pay some taxes to help defend the country and help those that need help. There are those who would call him a dope for paying more than he has to. I take every legal deduction that I can when I file my taxes. The system isn’t set up to let the average Joe to escape from paying some taxes. The problem with AIG and others that take advantage of tax loopholes is that they are the ones that influenced congress to write them. They may be able to go to sleep at night saying that they aren’t tax cheats because they followed the tax laws but they are just as guilty because they caused the laws to be written that favored them while punishing other.

    I take all of my deductions without thinking or feeling guilty. If I were able to get a law passed that said all Grouchy Old Men with my last name, born the same year as I was didn’t have to pay taxes, I could legally get out of paying taxes but I would not be able to say that I wasn’t a tax cheat.

    As I have said before, just because it’s legal doesn’t mean it moral, abortion or slavery are examples. One had better put his trust in what is right and wrong in someone “with a high pay grade” than he has to decide what is right and wrong, moral or immoral is.

    God and His Scriptures are a good place to start. Once you start following His advice, that still small voice that we all have will shout at you when you try to determine which direction you should go. You may not lisen to it but you will know right from wrong.

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  19. I have a friend that was in taco bells drive throw and the car next to him kept yelling at him to turn his music down. He went home got his shotgun and went back to taco bell and shot the guy. (He lived) Now he is serving ten years in state pen. That story has nothing to do with morality, that just plain common sense. It might help the story to know he was an ex-marine.
    You can go on and on about how AIG and other companies cheat this and that. But I’m sure you’re not complaining if your annuities or retirement accounts are going up. All companies try and find loop hole. Now if they made it a level playing filed then you wouldn’t have to find loop holes, but it not a level playing filed.

    I’m sure I’m not going to get kick out of heaven because I have AIG stock in my profile. And it that’s the case, then everyone in the US that made any profits in any retirement account is going to hell.

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  20. You know Pook you sure seem to have a lot of friends who do dumb things. Maybe you need some new friends.

    A legal loop hole is just that, legal. Now if I don't like it I don't have to participate but one of your earlier comments was off shore accounts and how that was wrong even though legal. Now you say take advantage of every loop hole, which is it?

    No, I don't think God will kick you out for having AIG stock but maybe for believing in global warming.

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  21. To quote Nelson from the Simpsons, HA! HA!

    Tiredofthecrap, I see the humor in your last comment.

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  22. He was more of an acquaintance then a fire.
    Off shore accounts our not 100% legal in some case from how I understand it, and the IRS has been trying to get them for years. However, other countries will not let the banks export the accounts to the IRS under their banking laws in that country. So it’s not really a loop whole as someone just taking advantage of the weakness in the system.

    Big difference in my eyes.

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  23. That's really splitting hairs to have a distinction between a loophole and weakness in the system.

    Offshore accounts are legal, the non reporting of interest earned is not. The IRS wants their take. Why not drop our corporate and our death tax etc. and compete with the offshore accounts? The more the administration taxes the more people are going to find ways to hide or divert income.

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  24. "Why not drop our corporate and our death tax etc. and compete with the offshore accounts? The more the administration taxes the more people are going to find ways to hide or divert income"

    I agree 100%.

    Toss the IRS out the door, and got to a national sales and service tax. (With a national income tax for people making more then 2 million per yer)

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  25. Well Pook, at least you raise your "rich" standards over Obama from 250k to 2 million.

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